I have found that when it comes to blogging, some of the most interesting stuff happens in the comments sections. If you don’t read them, sometimes you are missing out on the best part of a discussion. Isn’t that one of the things that makes blogs so great? They are so immediate and personal-the reader can actually take part in the discussion both with the author and the other readers. Try that with your local newspaper or favorite magazine!
Here at Frugal Upstate I have always tried to maintain a positive attitude, one that encourages people express themselves and to try new ideas. I like to focus on helping people try learn new frugal skills so that they can increase the quality of the lifestyle they enjoy with their family.
I don’t encourage controversy at Frugal Upstate-long time readers will confirm that I stay on topic and studiously keep away from politics, religion (except for mentioning church in a very vague way) and other inflammatory topics. It isn’t that I don’t have beliefs in those areas, but rather that I don’t want my personal beliefs to interfere with anyone being able to come to my blog and learn valuable information from it.
When there was a rather strong anonymous dissenting opinion (centering around censure of Walmart as a Corporation) in the comments of my recent post “Big Doings at Frugal Upstate” I wasn’t sure exactly what to do.
I have known from the start that my involvement with Walmart had the possibility of becoming controversial. There are many people who have a very strong anti-Walmart position. While I understand that, and many of their points, it is an opinion that I do not share.
I never considered deleting the comment (although blog authors have that option). All opinions are welcome here at Frugal Upstate, as long as they are expressed in a respectful way. This comment was respectful. The only comments I have ever deleted have been either vulgar or obviously spam.
I answered the comment, then Yankee Bill weighed in, and finally the original commenter replied.
I wanted to reply again-Liz (she gave her name in the second comment) brought up a good point that I wanted to address. On the other hand, I didn’t want to drag things out and create a controversy like the one that started over at Hormone Colored Days.
After much thought I decided to respond. If Liz had these questions and concerns, then there are probably many more thinking the same thing who haven’t spoken up.
To understand my response you really need to be in on the conversation. I am putting all the comments here so you all can read them without having to go back and search.
It started with this comment, which was stated in what I felt was a very respectful tone, from “anonymous”:
Sure, Wal-Mart isn’t giving you money- but they are giving you things and traffic promotion. I’d find it easier to be happy about this if Wal-Mart didn’t have such poor ethics.
The practices carried out by Wal-Mart are disgusting and despicable. I do not now nor ever will again shop there. I refuse to support their poor business practices just to save a few dollars.
I find myself suddenly turned off to this blog now. I am not trying to sound harsh or rude, but I have strong objections to Wal-Mart. I can only hope their demise is as quick and painful as their rise to fame was quick and deceitful. And they will, sometime very soon, meet their end.
My answer:
My anonymous friend-I’m sorry that you feel this way. While I am always sorry to lose a reader, each person must make these choices for themselves.
It’s too bad that you can’t separate my personal choices from my blog content and enjoy what up till this point you found useful and helpful about my blog. The same way I can disagree philosophically with some of my friends (quite strongly in some cases) on politics and yet still remain their friends.
I do find it interesting that you feel strongly enough about this to comment and stop reading my blog, and yet not strongly enough to use your name.
Best of luck to you on your future frugal endeavors.
Then Yankee Bill* (my husband) weighed in:
Small lives and smaller minds – pot-stirrers and rabble-rousers. Wal-Mart is an easy target (no pun intended) – folks have trouble with their sales, personnel and image practices, big deal! This is a capitalist economy folks – offer something at a reasonable price and the people will come.
If you don’t like Wal-Mart…don’t go there to shop. If you don’t like their practices in employee relations…don’t go there to work. If you’re in a position where that is the only work you can get…be happy you have a job. If you don’t like the job…better your station in life and move on to something that suits you better.
My Frugal Honey does this work to provide a service and help to those who might need it – she has not looked for compensation and has been quite diligent about not appearing to be beholden to anyone. This Country was formed on – and many of our Judeo-Christian values teach us that – giving to others is the good and right thing to do, think about it.
This opportunity may lead to a place where Jenn can reach a wider audience, get some ‘brand recognition’ and eventually even turn it into a paid gig at another level. Who is anyone to tell her that’s bad – geez ‘anonymous’ (LOL), worry about keeping your own house in order and we’ll do the same.
Sorry for my abruptness – I’m not the negotiator in this house – I hope the folks that have stopped by and felt there was something worthwhile will continue to do so…and when Jenn is a famous writer….I hope you’ll buy her books – *Wink*.
Yankee Bill
Then the original commenter responded, but this time she let us know that she was Liz of “Tightwad Turtle“.
I mean no disrespect to Jenn herself. I think she has wonderful tips and an interesting viewpoint. I love reading about Princess and Buddy- I think they’re adorable.
But Wal-Mart is an entity which has grown too fast and too big and they’ve tried to compensate by using corrupted products and poor business practices. I just wish people could realize WHAT they are supporting when they add money to the Wal-Mart tills.
I said I was turned off to the blog but not necessarily enough to stop reading. I will most probably continue reading, because I already have been.
Maybe you could blame my strong opposition on my age. I am only 20 years old afterall- I don’t even really have a house to “keep in order” since I still live with Mom. 😉
Just please know that I wasn’t meaning anything against Jenn. I am just disgusted that Wal-Mart is doing such a thing. In a way, it kind of feels like they’re using you, the bloggers, too. The fact that they AREN’T paying you concerns me. You’re going to be vlogging, which is a bit time consuming. They should pay you. But they won’t. Wal-mart is not frugal- they’re just plain cheap.
Apologies if I really did offend you, Jenn. Wasn’t trying to. And don’t worry, I will buy your books, just not at Wal-Mart and… probably secondhand, lol. (Hey, it is more frugal to buy secondhand, or better yet, rent from the library!)
And for the sake of proving my point on my strong objections, I’ve posted this one without anonymity.
So to Liz (and everyone else who is thinking about these things)-thank you for taking the time to comment. I really do appreciate that you took the time to write in the second time and continue the discussion as well as clarify your viewpoint. I am also glad that you will continue to read. As I stated, I am always sorry to lose a reader for any reason. I get an email from Feedburner everytime someone un-subscribes, and it always makes me blue 🙂
To answer Liz, I am copying the comment that I posted on Hormone Colored Days, which addresses the “no pay” issue. (as a note, several others from the project also commented, although the comment made by the Sr. Marketing Director from Walmart that we’ve been working with did NOT appear. Interesting)
The backstory there is that the author Kim was on a panel for marketers with one of the other 11Moms from the Walmart project. When it came up that the 11 Moms were not being paid by Walmart Kim (who is not one of the 11Moms) was very upset. My impression is that she felt we were taking a step backwards for all bloggers who were being paid for their work by agreeing to work for free.
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I am another of the 11 Mom’s involved in the Walmart project.
First off I want to start out by saying I do not consider myself a “Mommy Blogger”-not because of the title, but because I rarely mention my children & family except in passing, and never talk about parenting, personal issues etc. I am a Personal Finance blogger who concentrates on frugality and thrift. (Ranked 30th in the last top 100 PF bloggers list)
To be honest, at this point I have no problem with the lack of pay. Would I like to earn some money at my “full time hobby”-well yes. At this point, blogging for 2 1/2 years, I don’t even run ads. So currently I earn nothing at all and spend lots of time doing it.
If Walmart had actually offered to pay us for these spots, I think I would have had more concerns about the project as a whole-what type of editorial/review power would they have had, would their be future issues with them asking me to recommend something that I don’t truly endorse. And if we were being paid, obviously there would have to be some sort of contractual agreement to consider, along with the legal ramifications of pulling out of said agreement if we didn’t like the direction the project went in.
At this point Walmart has nothing except our agreement that we will participate. Based on our word we were sent digital cameras, with the promise that the content of our videos remains our own to post where-ever we choose (we can post them at our own site prior to Walmart, and of course create content exclusively for our sites). There wasn’t even a promise invoked for how many segments we would actually provide them. I guess if I were a jerk (which I like to think I’m not) I could whip out a couple of crappy vlogs without putting much effort into it, take the camera and run. And they wouldn’t be able to do much about it.
As for the publicity, there will be link ins with the printed WalMart fliers, which reach over 85,000 households. I can’t think of any other opportunity that would give me a shot at publicity with such a wide range of people.
I was also assured in conversation with Walmart that if they desired to use these clips or film others to present on the in store tv systems, that those would be compensated opportunities, and that other compensated opportunities might come out of this depending on how it develops.
So from my point of view, I’m actually getting a decent deal.
Up until this point no-one has been knocking down my door to buy my content or to have me write for them. Even without the promise of any pay I have intended to continue blogging anyway for the outlet and the satisfaction it gives me. Similarly, I’ve been acting in community theatre for years and no one has paid me for that either.
I am getting free equipment which will enable me to create better content for my own blog. I would not have purchased myself a digital video camera-I wouldn’t have been able to justify the cost. The added bonus is that of course I can use it for personal use as well.
Through this program I am getting exposed to an audience who I would not otherwise be able to reach. Let’s face it, right now the audience we all are vying for are those that already read blogs, many of whom are bloggers themselves. Occasionally someone will get highlighted in a print magazine or paper and pick up some “non blog” readers that way. The Walmart fliers are reaching a totally untapped demographic-the average American household who really isn’t familiar with blogs. I’ll be happy to be one of the 11 moms who introduces them to the concept!
Add to all that there is the possibility of compensation in the future. Sure, I realize that I’m being the hopeful type. But I also believe that I have talent, both writing and performing, and that I have important things to say that will appeal. So I’m willing to chance it.
Finally, I’m not going to just rest on my laurels, I’m going to try to leverage this with my local newspaper into a weekly column (paid of course) on saving money. I think the fact that I’ve been picked up by Corporate WalMart will have some weight there. At the very least it’s a credit to add to my portfolio.
So while I can understand some of your feelings, I don’t particularly feel that I am being taken advantage of. I’m more than happy to take part in this program due to the way that it is structured, and I don’t feel in any way that it is demeaning or selling out.
Again, I am not posting all of this in order to start (or continue) any type of anger, dissention or controversy. I just want my position and feelings on this to be clear and understood (if not necessarily agreed with).
This blog, and it’s readers are important to me. I know that you all come here because I provide you with useful (and hopefully entertaining) information, and that you trust me. I don’t want in any way to damage your trust or belief in me-after all, my reputation is all I’ve got! I want to be clear and, as Walmart it’s self keeps saying, “transparent” about this entire deal.
Feel free to continue this conversation in the comments, but please, remain respectful not only of me and my choices, but of the beliefs and choices of anyone else who chooses to join in. And thank you Liz, for bringing this up and being forward enough to write in.
*(I love him and obviously have influence with him, but his opinions and choice to comment are always his own)
A well-written post, Jenn! As a fellow 11Moms, I agree with you on all counts. This is not the first time or the last time people (not just bloggers) that people have done something for free in exchange for exposure, brand building, or to get their foot in the door.
I’d love to see the comment that John from Wal-Mart posted – would be wonderful to see all sides.
Jenn,
I know nothing whatsoever about this project, and it makes no difference to me. I worked at Wal-Mart twice, and if worse came to worse, would work there again. It’s a paycheck, not a lifestyle choice. I have my problems with Wal-Mart, but I have no problem with you, so why would I stop reading your blog because of you being involved with Wal-Mart? I think sometimes these youngsters who run the web (the average age of the internet blogger is 14) get a little out of hand sometimes. Talk about hormones running amok! They make menopausal women look tame!
Still, all in all, you have a wonderful blg and are talented writer. Keep up the good work.
I LOVED this post. Attaboy to your husband. My husband worked for Wal-mart for 9 years–part of the time as an Assistant Manager. It was hard work/long hours. We never once felt discriminated against. We are still grateful for the opportunities Wal-mart afforded us. They are a company which advocates personal responsibility, and I think they were ahead of their time with regards to health insurance issues. Personal responsibility will be our future–unless we turn into a socialist nation. I think the 20 year old is oblivious to the road she and her generation my take our country down. Grow up and become better informed.
I was discussing this subject with my family the other day when I first encountered it online. As a newbie blogger, the first thing I thought is< "what a great way to promote my blog" AND don't a lot of bloggers WANT a way to promote their blog?
A lot of experienced bloggers perhaps have a different perspective and are trying to legitimize, professionalize the blogging world. Good for them. They are in a different place than I. You have an excellent comparison to community theatre. Great points all. Valid community discussion.
I enjoy your blog very much, but was also not so happy to see you “working” with Walmart. I am not a supporter of the company in any way. However, I do believe that we live in a country where we are able to consider the information available to us and each make our own decisions. While I obviously don’t agree with your opinions on Walmart, I respect your right to have them. I also very much respect that fact that you addressed this issue in a fair way. You have a great blog that I will continue reading! As for the Walmart thing, it’s just one area we will have to agree to disagree on, and that’s okay! Thanks for providing an informative, entertaining blog. You do good work, Jen!
-Nancy
First off- lemme say KUDOS to Yankee Bill! there’s a man that honors his wife 😉
Love your blog and you are doing a great job- the tips you share are beneficial to many. Do what you need to to make achieve your highest good- but i gotta admit, my Canadian dollar will stay outta the pocket of the wallymart coffers as long as possible. buy locally folks.
Many blessings!
Hi, it’s Kim from the above-mentioned Hormone-colored Days. Had I not heard about the no-pay project in front of a group of marketing managers, I wouldn’t have made such a fuss. I would have chalked it up to another sleazy move by Wal-Mart.
I understand the mindset of the bloggers who are participating and I hope you manage to spin this into bigger and better projects that pay well. I have a couple of friends among the “Wal-Mart 11” and I look forward to reading about their experiences with the project.
As you noted, I think many intersting comments were left in response to my post.
And like some of your commenters here, it’s Wal-Mart I despise, not you.
Good luck!
I agree with the rest that it is a great opportunity to get your name out. I also think that it not being a paid gig actually helps bloggers involved uphold their integrity.
I hope the bloggers involved benefit from this the most.
I appreciate the work of you and the other 11 moms to make this project work. The way you have set up this conversation online is to be commended: you gave enough background on the situation to make sense, included comments and gave your opinions before encouraging engagement in the discussion.
I do think that not being paid for the role is an asset in this situation – I know I personally trust in your integrity, but I was a reader before this big news. 🙂
Truth be told, I wish there could be a wave of 11 Mom Project wannabes that *I* could participate in. I would be intrigued by some of the same things you have mentioned: additional exposure to new audiences, a way to increase useful content on my blog, and to leverage the project for new opportunities.
I’m looking forward to your role in this project, as well as the other moms. Good luck with everything!
It’s interesting to me how upset many people get about Walmart.I understand the whole big-box dilemma, but it seems to me that Walmart gets more than its share of criticisms, maybe because it’s just the bigger target(there’s that pun sneaking in again). I have relatives who have worked at Kmart and other department stores, and Walmart’s employment practices don’t seem different. I have friends and relatives who work for smaller local stores who have even less opportunity for advancement and no benefits. There are many “green” items that I have been able to purchase because of the prices at Walmart. Though I wouldn’t want Walmart to become my only shopping choice, I have a hard time seeing it as the “satan of department stores”. I’m a huge fan of shopping local, second hand, freecycle, etc., but I consider Walmart as one more tool in frugal “arsenal”. It seems to me they have been offering more and more in the sustainable lines, both food and non-food items. I have a hard time seeing the bad in this. It will be interesting to see how your venture pans out and if it leads to other opportunities. Best of luck!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Comments are fantastic for discussion. I’m 1 of the Wal-Mart 11 – and feel both sides of the controversy stated on Hormone Colored Days. It is really a tough call because every blogger is hoping to build their resume and experience as we seek to expand our understanding of Social Media – opportunities like this are fantastic for me personally. Paid or Unpaid. The Vlogging is already a component of the work I do on my site anyhow and now I get the chance to network with others, learn about Wal-Mart, etc. And as far as Corporations paying us – I think in time more bloggers will get paid as our services become more valuable to them and they realize the value of Social Media. But until then – I also think it is an issue of supply and demand in the blogging world. If I did not agree to participate in this panel – I’m sure there would easily be 100 other moms that would happily replace me! So I think each blogger needs to decide what is best for them – weighing potential exposure, future career goals, time committments, etc. Regardless of how this turns out, I’m thrilled to be a part of this Social Media project using Vlogging as a means to share our advice!
Congratulations on your Wal-Mart gig. I have read your blog for almost a year now, and have only commented a few times. I also follow you on Twitter. I only hope that the Wal-Mart gig will bring more people to your wonderful blog. I feel that those who oppose Wal-Mart should use their dollars and their feet, by not shopping or working there. And obviously, those that don’t agree with your principles, can stop reading your blog. I remain your loyal reader! Nicole
I’d like to address the comment Lisa Brooks made…
“I think the 20 year old is oblivious to the road she and her generation may take our country down. Grow up and become better informed.”
I think you’re wrong. I think I am way more informed on many issues than those my age. Most 20-somethings don’t care about the issues. I happen to care. In my opinion, my age really has nothing to do with my opinion or my level of being informed on any subject. Maybe you should better inform yourself before making such a bold judgment.
Onto other things…
I appreciate you addressing this Jenn on your actual blog. While I still don’t agree with Wal-Mart and its practices, it is your own choice to support them. What I say will not sway you and what you say will not sway me. As someone else said earlier, we just have to agree to disagree.
Liz,
Time to take a DEEP breath – when most of us were 20-somethings we didn't think our age mattered either. You will age, and with age you will be able to reflect…if at 40-something you look back at this moment in time, and still feel the same – I will be happy to say, "I am sincerely sorry for doubting you."
Kudos to you for being informed – just be careful to not get all that 'information' from only one point of view. Keep an open mind and put yourself in the other person's shoes – it will serve you well, in all you endeavor.
A wise person told me once: "If you're 20 and not liberal – you have no soul…If you're 40 and not conservative – you have no brain." This is not (necessarily) a political statement – but more of a general mindset. Again, if you disagree with me in 20 years…I am in your debt – but chances are, it's a bet I'd win.
Sounds like Ms. Brooks has some real first hand experience with Wal-Mart – something the rest of us (maybe) don't have. Would I have told you to "grow up"? No, but I think she was referring to what I stated above – maturity, living on your own, supporting/defending a family, being responsible for more than your room in Mom's house…these are all things we have gone through – they have shaped us and OUR beliefs.
I happen to agree with Lisa on the personal responsibility thing – I feel that entitlement programs our government has sponsored/enacted have crippled many families/individuals/generations and will ultimately bankrupt our country (maybe not in my lifetime – maybe not in yours – but maybe in that of my kids?). Americans need to pull up their boots and take care of their own. Just one of the reasons I'm anti-union and supportive of Wal-Mart's efforts to remain that way. Many (if not most) unions have outlived their usefulness – I can say this as a dues-paying, union member of the AFL-CIO (only because my job is in a closed shop – and if I choose not to be a member Jenn and the kids don't get the dental and vision care benefits that my dues pay for. If I chose not to be a member – the dues would still be charged against my paycheck and I wouldn't get the benefits). Perfect example of being a responsible adult/parent and making compromises in order to provide for the household good. There are gray areas – it's not always black & white.
Long story short – agree to disagree and let's get back to being Frugal again.
Yankee
Agreed Yankee.
Of course, being a wise 20, I “know it all”. Haha… that was a joke! If you listen to country music… might you be reminded of the song?
Anyways, I’ll try not to bring up the issue again.
Best wishes to you and yours,
Liz
Thank you all for participating in this conversation!
The phrase, “You can’t please everyone.” comes to mind. First time reader and will continue to do so even if you are “incahoots” with Wal-Mart.
🙂
It makes me so happy to see you are invovled with Walmart!! People have different opinions of Walmart, but they did start out as a small company with big dreams…just like our friend Jen who is writing this blog. Please don’t fault Walmart for being successful…and even more important, please don’t fault Jen for being happy about more exposure for her blog.
Aside from which company Jen is working with…God’s Word is going around the world via Keeping the Kingdom First!!! Praise God for the many readers who will read the scriptures on the site and see the Greatest Words EVER written…that is the real story here!!!!
Ah, I got my blogs all mixed up…sorry to have posted on the wrong one! Yes, I’m a sleep deprived mom and I’ll put my comment on the RIGHT website this time…sorry Frugal Upstate folks 🙂
I don’t have any wise words to add to this conversation except that Liz sounds like a pretty mature 20 year old to me. She may not have a ton of life experience but she comes off as someone who is bold and yet slow to take offense. She’s not afraid to state her opinion nor to suffer the backlash of any who may disagree. I think our country might do well to have more like her.
I’m not a regular reader here but I found this conversation and am going to take a look around. I’m always interested in learning how to save more.
Thanks,
Kate