I got a very interesting comment on my post “House Bids and Such” today. For those of you who don’t read back comments I thought I’d post it here and comment on it more fully:
Can you please explain something to me (and your readers). Kindly explain why someone (you) who has a blog dedicated to a ‘frugal philosophy’ and ‘living within your means’ would do something like this, in your own words:”To start with, we are going from not paying any mortgage to paying a fairly large one. It’s not that we can’t afford it, but it will make some significant changes for us.”
Foreclosures are up 94% in the USA, layoffs are piling up daily, the credit crunch is affecting the global economy, not just USA, you didn’t sell your own home yet nor have you put it on the market, yet you are bidding on a home, which in my opinion is more home than you can chew?
Can you just explain this to me?
I don’t get it? How do you justify not being in debt and then going into large debt because the house looks nice or whatever? By your own admission, you state that this house is the most expensive in your town?
Why aren’t you content with your 1200 sq ft high ranch?
I’d like you to share with us how you are attempting to accomplish this, your
justifications and why you need to upgrade your life?Yes, the house is beautiful. Have you thought about how older homes need costly repairs? Higher taxes, heating bills and cooling? More furniture requirements? and if so, can you share your frugal philosophy with us?Anonymous
For some reason this comment struck me as being somewhat antagonistic-but since it is near impossible to tell “tone of voice” online, I am going to take this as an honest and respectful question.
This comment seems to me to have made quite a few assumptions about Yankee Bill and I.
#1- Have you thought about how older homes need costly repairs? Higher taxes, heating bills and cooling? More furniture requirements? Have you really thought this through?
Uh, Yes! Frankly I’m a bit insulted that someone would think I had NOT considered those things. I would hope that anyone who reads my blog has seen that I think over purchases, decisions, lifestyles, consequences etc very thoroughly before making decisions. Yankee Bill frequently teases me that I think too much! So yes, yes, yes and yes. We have considered everything that was brought up in this comment, weighed our options, and absolutely believe that this is the right choice for our family. Our choices are our own, and as I frequently point– certain decisions are right for one person in their particular circumstance, and might not be right for everyone else.
We researched the heating costs (cooling costs are irrelevant as there is no AC), taxes, etc. The house has been thoroughly examined, and not only have all the major renovations that anyone would want been done (new kitchen, attic converted to master bedroom suite) but the siding, furnace (w/dehumidifier) etc are all new, and the roof, although 13 years old, looks brand new. There is nothing that HAS to be done to this house, although we want to refinish the floors and do a new paint job on everything before moving in-but that is pure aesthetics.
Of course we will look for ways to mitigate those heating costs-the current occupants don’t have any kind of lined drapes up (not to mention thermal) on the old single pane windows with storm windows, so I’m sure we can cut their average heating cost right there. Plus we tend to keep the house cool and throw on slippers and a sweater. I’m willing to bet (and will report on at the end of the winter) that we will drastically cut the amount of heat required.
And as for the furniture, I feel no need to simply fill up space. I prefer items with character anyway, the type that you buy at thrift stores or inherit from family. I am willing to make do without until the right pieces come along, and then buy them for cheap 🙂 Of course, everyone’s idea of cheap differs.
#2- How do you justify not being in debt and then going into large debt because the house looks nice or whatever?
Inherent in this question seems to be the idea that any debt at all is wrong. Do I like being in debt? No, of course not. However I am willing to be in debt for something that I consider important enough. And this house will be our only debt. You are right when you say we are not in debt, but you may not realize how right you are. Right now we have NO DEBT AT ALL. No car loans, no mortgage, nothing. We even pay off our credit cards every month.
Add onto that we annually max out our IRAs, and that since we moved here and Yankee Bill got his state job, we have been living on his military retirement, and putting HIS ENTIRE PAYCHECK into the childrens colleg fund and the deferred comp plan (ie retirement) at work. Then there are the other investments in our portfolio. Oh, and this month he got a two pay grade increase at work because his 18 month “internship” for his state job is up.
Does that surprise you? I have stated many times in the past on this blog that we are frugal because we WANT to be, because to us it doesn’t make sense to spend more than you have to, or to waste resources uneccesarily. I’ve also stated that we are frugal on the things that aren’t important to us so we can spend money on the things that are important to us.
So all of this adds up to the fact that I am quite comfortable with taking on this level of debt and will sleep soundly at night, unlike a large percentage of the country.
#3- Foreclosures are up 94% in the USA, layoffs are piling up daily, the credit crunch is affecting the global economy, not just USA, you didn’t sell your own home yet nor have you put it on the market, yet you are bidding on a home,
OK, I’m not really sure what the state of the rest of the country has to do with me personally. I’m not concerned with anyone else’s foreclosure rate, or layoffs. You may think me naive, but I doubt the NY State is going to lay my hubby off 🙂 Even if they somehow did, Yankee Bill is not the kind of man who would sit home and do nothing. I have the utmost faith that he would ALWAYS find a job and help support us, even if it were something that he was over qualified for. And if we really had to, we could live on his military retirement alone — it would be tight, but we could.
But the real assumption here seems to be that not selling our current home is fiscally irresponsible somehow. The initial plan, as I stated in the original post, was to rent out our current house. There are not many houses for rent here, and there are 3 small factories in town, one of which frequently has project managers who come in and work for a few years and then leave. If we rent it, there is a market and we would be able to get somewhere in the neighborhood of $800 a month, which would be about 1/2 to 2/3 of our mortgage payment. If we kept the house with renters in it long enough, it would actually become a source of revenue.
But it is starting to look like we may sell instead. This is more because of the irritation of being landlords than because of financial reasons-as I said, if we kept a rental long enough it would become a source of income, whereas if we sell we get one lump sum and then no more.
The housing market in our town is such that I have the utmost confidence that if we decide to sell, we will have a buyer quickly. Again, you may think me naive, but the house is in a very desirable neighborhood, close to the village in an awesome school district and is on the village electrical cooperative which provides electricity at 1/3 of the cost of NYSEG. Trust me, people want to live here. We’ve already had two neighbors approach us about family members who would like to look at it, and that is without us even having decided to sell. Plus we bought our house for $90,000 and probably could sell it at around $130-which is a decent price range for this neighborhood.
So that addresses the assumptions, now on to the meat of your question. I see that in two parts. #1-Why aren’t we happy in our current home and #2-concern that this house is “more than you can chew” either financially or physically.
Why we aren’t content with your 1200 sq ft high ranch.
We bought this house, with the understanding between Yankee Bill and I that within 5 or 6 years we would either build an addition onto the house or else move to a larger home. We have been pretty much bursting at the seams the whole time. This is the smallest home we have lived in during our entire marriage, and even with the fairly drastic downsizing and “culling” of possesions that we’ve done since moving here, we can’t fit what we own in this home. We have items stored at my MIL’s house, we purchased the and installed the largest size “shed” that you can place on your property without requiring a building certificate, and still the downstairs den has stacks of “things” that don’t have a home.
We’ve been creative with space; installing wire shelving above the door in the bathroom for towels, placing Buddy’s bed on a loft to provide more space for him to play, moving all of my hanging clothing and shoes into Buddy’s closet so Yankee Bill would have enough room in our closet to hang his work clothes. . . . etc etc etc.
The children have very small rooms, and so they wind up with all of their toys in the living room playing during the day-especially in the winter. Since I am a stay at home mom, and they are with me all summer and Buddy is home during the winter (well, he spends mornings at preschool) that means they are messing up basically the ENTIRE HOUSE every day. The only way to keep it in order would be to either not allow them to play in the living room (which I don’t think is fair) or to make them constantly be picking up after each game, which doesn’t allow their play to flow from one item to the next. (Yes, you may disagree with that philosophy, but that is what I believe and am operating under-everyone has a right to different parenting styles and theories).
It has been mentally and physically wearing on me. I am by no means a neatnick and really dislike cleaning (I’m sure my MIL, who is very very orderly and neat occasionally shudders at the state of my house)-but the frustration at not having any space in the house that is soley for adults, where things actually stay where you put them, has been immense.
My children, like my side of the family, are loud and rambunctious. I don’t mean that in a bad way, that is just the way my side (even me-I know, you never would have guessed) of the family is. My mom always said that if one of us were in the front of the house on the first floor and someone we wanted to talk to was on the back of the second floor and we needed to ask a question-we wouldn’t go upstairs, we’d just yell louder 🙂 Yankee Bill, on the other hand, grew up in a much more sedate, quiet family. To be completely honest, although he loves us all to peices and adores the children, we overstimulate him. He needs time away from the noise and chaos occasionally-and there is no way to do that in this house. This results in no small amount of stress and disharmony in my household and marraige.
Lastly-at least on the “why aren’t you happy in your current house” question-I am very unhappy with not being able to entertain in our current home. We hang out with 3 other couples, each with 2 kids, and we like to get together regularly for spur of the moment parties and BBQ’s. I am unable to invite them over to my house all fall, winter and spring. There is just no way that I can have 8 adults and 8 children (all between the ages of 8 and 3) running around in my house. No. Way. I also have a large and very close family. Well, physically we are NOT close-we are spread all over the country. But we all keep in very close contant. Right now, with no guest room, the only way to have family visit and people spend the night at our house is to sleep in the middle of the downstairs den on an air mattress. Since Yankee Bill’s work and home office is in that room the person staying there feels like they are inconveniencing us-and although we would never admit it to them, they are!
All of these points are particular to my family and it’s members. Those things might not bother someone else, or they may be able to deal with it differently. Or maybe they just have pod children for kids who are neat, clean and quiet 🙂 I’m not trying to say that these issues would hold true for anyone in our home, but the truth is they do hold true for us. Since we have the financial werewithall to fix those issues by buying a larger house, why shouldn’t we? Is it somehow better or more noble to live in a smaller house? If we did not have the ability to buy a larger home, then we would continue to make do where we are-but we don’t have to.
Buying the house is biting off “more than we can chew”.
I respect that you have a right to your opinion, but I’d like to point out that you really have no basis for that assumption. (oh, and by the way, this is NOT the most expensive house in town-merely on the more expensive side. Plus prices here have gone up in the last 10 years or so. Obviously I was somewhat unclear in my original post for you to assume this was THE most expensive house in town. There are plenty of $400,000 homes up on the hill.)
I think I outlined above that we are financially well placed to purchase this house. I know I said that buying this house would “make significant lifestyle changes for us”, I wasn’t lying–I probably just didn’t mean what you thought I meant.
Let me explain. Up to now, anything that we really wanted to buy, we have. That’s not to say that we haven’t thought about it, and made sure we got a good price on it, but we buy plenty of things that are wants, not needs. Yankee Bill has his 2 Harley Davidson motorcycles, and he is always buying shiny bits for them. I indulge my Dollar Store addiction and usually buy some new outfits every season (although at the thrift store). I didn’t think anything of agreeing to accompany a friend to San Diego for fun (and purchase $260 plane tickets) or of signing Princess up for dance lessons and buying the necessary accoutraments (although I priced them out and hit the thrift store and yard sales-more about that later). When Yankee Bill wants to take a trip, buy a gegaw, build a $200 tree stand, well-we do it. We want to go out for an evening, we pay the money for a babysitter and eat at a nice restaraunt or take in a movie.
We haven’t worried about it because we haven’t had to worry about it-we are frugal about all the every day things in our lives, like grocery purchases and heat bills, kids clothes and library books, all so that we COULD spend the rest of our money as we chose. I have never lied or misled anyone on this blog-all the things I say we do, we really do. I’ve tried hard to point out to people the things that I don’t do frugally, as well as any mistakes that I make.
When we purchase this house, we will suddenly have a $1200-$1600 payment (we are still shopping loans). During the first 6 months or so we will also have all those “moving in” expenses. I will be posting on all that later, but to name a few: refinishing floors, painting walls, buying carpeting, installing insulating drapes or shades, even buying another shower curtain (this place has 2 baths to our current one).
This means that money that was previously available for “fun” stuff will now be used for house things. We probably won’t put as much into retirement savings (but hey, how many people do you know who put almost their entire check in every month for 2 and a half years? I still say we are ahead of the game) and will have to think even harder about purchases. But we will by no means be overextended or “house poor”.
Is it “more than we can chew” space wise? Well, it is a larger house than we were looking for. We will have room not only for the kiddos each to have a room, but there is also a “pass through room” (ie it’s a room, but it is also a hallway) which can be used as a playroom (yes! Kids toys can mostly stay THERE and the den can stay neater). We will have an actual guest room, which will also double as my sewing/craft room. The “5th” bedroom is actually a room off of the den/living room, and it will become Yankee Bill’s office (a totally kid free zone).
The only room that you could really say I don’t have any purpose or use for is the front parlor, which will probably have very little furniture in it until I just happen onto the right stuff. This room attaches to the den/living room via pocket doors, so when we have the whole gang over we can open it all up and use it as party space, but it isn’t strictly necessary.
The only thing in this house that I feel might be “more than I can chew” is the housework–as I’ve said, I’m not the worlds best housekeeper. I’m just going to have to work really hard on sticking to a schedule for that. I must admit that going from cleaning 1 1/2 baths to 2 1/2 baths is a little intimidating 🙂
I do think that the kids keeping most of their stuff in the playroom or bedrooms will help with the neatness issue-no more doing crafts on the coffee table in the den and leaving bits of paper everywhere.
So Anonymus, there you are. My thoughts and reasoning. I hope that I have clarified things for you and allayed your fears. I know that I have no fears about this decision.
More posts on my frugal philosophies:
25 things I do to save money
25 things I don’t do to save money
Anonymous says
I agree that that comment was overly aggressive. My husband works in credit repair, and the fact of the matter is that if you have no debt, you are looked on VERY suspiciously by the government and finance industry alike. If you want to maintain your buying power (in case of an emergency, for example), you have to have some kind of ongoing line of credit. Currently, we live in an apartment (if you want to know why, check out housing costs in San Jose, CA). Around here, property managers will not rent to prospective tenants who are debtless. It may be idiotic, but that’s the real world.
Moreover, your plan to rent out your current home will look really good in both your portfolio and your credit scores. I’ve been keeping an eye on the housing and rental markets in WNY, and now seems like a really good time to invest. Good for you for being willing to take a calculated risk!
Best of luck!
Lauren (harper)
Ivy says
Holy crap, I can’t believe someone would be so rude as to question your decisions like that, especially to ask why you’re not happy with what you have. God forbid people should want to move up in the world. Ugh, ugh, ugh.
Alexandra says
Property in the right area is a great investment. My parents have done very well over the past 50 years with purchasing and selling property. Much better than the stock market. They’ve held their properties for some time; they are not flippers. Their appreciation on them was well worth the investment.
Barb says
I think the comments from the poster were harsh. They appeared to be reading into the situation, and doing in a very negative manner. I think it best to ignore people who post comments like that.
Congrats on the house! It sounds as though you are going to really enjoy it. It will be fun to read about your progress.
Barb C
Allisone says
Wow,
You owe no explaination at all. You don’t ask me why I am reading your blog, if I want to go out and buy a new pair of shoes.
I appreciate the tips, and the glimpse of your life that you share with us without asking anything in return.
kel says
Good answers! Everyones house buying decision is very personal, and yours seems very well thought out.
My husband and I just bought a house that is much bigger than our last house, and much more money. It may have seemed unreasonable to some people, but made sense to us. Our plan was always to be in our tiny house for only a short time. We’re now in a big house, which is way bigger than the two of us need, but will be perfect for our family when it grows.
The whole point of being wise with your money is so that you have flexibility later to do what you want with it! Your wise choices have made it possible to have the house you want – good job!
Jenn @ Frugal Upstate says
Thank you all for your comments and support.
I agree that I don’t “owe” anyone an explaination, however I do understand that in writing this blog I have put myself out there as a sort of “expert” and therefor am open to comments, questions and even criticisms. That’s just part of the game.
I can also see where, if someone has not been reading long, they may have been under the mistaken impression that I am frugal due to necessity–that maybe I had either recently worked my way out of debt or was in the process of doing so, or that my staying home had caused financial hardships for the family. If someone believed that I can see where they may have felt betrayed and misled.
As always, I welcome questions as long as they are respectful. Although I felt, as I said, that the tone of the comment was a bit agressive, I did welcome the comment and appreciated the opportunity to address a question that was probably on several readers minds.
T'Pol says
I felt the tone of the anonymous post was aggressive and judgemental. I wish you the happiest times ever in your new home.
Anonymous says
Ok slow down, I see they truly meant no harm but, wanted to help you prepare. Not all people are as bright as you are. In San Francisco piece of junk houses cost a fortune and allover California. Many people buy them with stars in thier eyes and end up homeless. You could always have a wood stove put in to save on heating and a swamp cooler. There are all kinds of options but,you have to be careful. I ended up in a real hell hole due to poor choices and lack of brains. I was young and dumb. I know now. You can do it!! Just do your best!! It may be expensive but, you can get it refianced in 6 months to lower the payments. It was a bit rude but, everyone has room for critisism. Better to prepare now than end up freezing in the winter. Sorry if I sound rude but, I got an awful wakeup call in the past.Have a good day and best of luck. This is a life saving blog. Sincerly, Annette I know you are capable!! You can do it!!
Anonymous says
P.S. The house you may buy is no piece of junk!! Here in CA housing costs are INSANE!! Annette
Jenn @ Frugal Upstate says
Annette-Unfortunately, even though there is a chimney, it has been judged unsound for use in wood burning etc. The only reason we want it repointed is so the bricks don’t start falling out 🙂
I appreciate your sweet nature and your willingness to see the original commentor’s side. Like I said, I welcome questions, issues and criticisms as long as they are kept respectful. I felt that the comment, although a tad agressive, was still posed respectfully-which is why I answered it.
Ali says
wow ~ how harsh of “anonymous”!!
we are frugal in most areas of our lives but do travel overseas every couple of yrs ~ that’s how we choose to live.
best of luck with your “new” house
fitcat says
My parents were almost bankrupt when I was a kid, struggling with running their own business. They learnt the difference between good and bad debt and now own over 20 rental properties, have a large portfolio and employ close to 20 staff (most on a contract/part-time or job share basis). They are in debt yes but it is a good debt and they have come a long way from when we broke up the money jar to buy groceries.
I enjoyed your post and how you emphasised that debt is not necessarily bad (although much of it is, particularly the relationship that most of society has with debt!) . 🙂
T'Pol says
BTW, I liked Yankee Bill’s comment to the aggressive anon commenter. Frugality certainly does not mean deprivation. Even rich people can be frugal in many ways. After all, money does not grow on trees. However, if one is able to afford a nicer home, better car or travel, she/he should go for it. Yet she/he can still try to cook from scratch, clip coupons or whatever. Life should not be postponed. You never know.
You are certainly making a wise, educated choice and I hope, you will soon start to enjoy your new home.
Janelle says
While I felt that comment was a little harsh, I really enjoyed hearing your reasoning on your decisions. We do a lot of the same processes when we make big decisions. We also have several rentals (some good, some bad) and live in an old house and the heating bills are the worst (no AC here either). We did put inserts in 2 of our fireplaces-but had to use SS liners since our chimneys weren’t good enough. That has helped so much-of course cutting, splitting, and stacking firewood and feeding the stove isn’t always fun, but it’s a choice we make so we can live in a beautiful old home. It’s all about indivdual choices, which you made that point very nicely in this post.
Jenn @ Frugal Upstate says
Janelle-what is an SS Liner? Personally I’d love to have wood to rely on if the power went out for a long stretch (although with the propane we’d be good for a while. . . )
Wesley Jeanne says
Yes, the comments were rude and made assumptions. Yes, your decisions are yours and are personal. However, as you did say in your comments, by writing this blog in the tone in which you write, you do put yourself out there as a kind of expert, so I do think it is responsible of you–not to justify your decisions, but–to explain them as you have in this post.
That said I think one thing you didn’t say but implied is that frugality is not about NOT spending money, it’s about making decisions to spend money on the things that matter to you and your family. That is exactly what it seems you are doing. You are making a thoughful, educated decision as to where your money will go–not to credit card interest payments, not to a bunch of brand new stuff, but to something that will enhance your life the way you live it. Kudos.
BTW I think you should try the rental route. It is a hassle but not only are you gaining the appreciation on the house, you are (or should be) getting enough in rent payments to offset your current mortgage and pay for any repairs that will be needed in the coming years (to the rental house). Just make sure that your charge enough rent to cover any mortgage that would have been on the rental house as well as taxes and insurance. We learned that when you set a precedent of asking for rent that is too low, when you go to seel the house, other investors won’t touch it as rental property investment. Just an FYI.
I really hope the house works out for you and please keep us informed about your continued frugal decision-making process. It’s interesting and helpful.
Kim says
I think its interesting that the semi-nasty comments are always anons!
People tend to project what they can or can’t do on other people. Good for you for standing up for your family!
Anonymous says
have tried to publish comments, but not successful
Jenn @ Frugal Upstate says
My laptop is still in the shop, so I’m sorry I haven’t been responding as quickly as usual, or replying to every poster.
Anon-I’m sorry you are having problems posting; I know it is nothing on this end as the only check I have on posting is that “type these letters” thing, and that is simply to prevent spambots from plastering ads thinly veiled as comments all over my blog.
If it is a longer post and you are getting timed out, you may want to try typing the response up in a word processor, then opening the comment window and cutting and pasting the text in. That may help.
Vic says
You know, I just wrote an article about the mortgage “crisis” and found the statistics say smaller communities (like yours, Jenn) are sheltered from the market downturn because they never “boomed” with double-digit housing market inflation.
As we well know, the bubble always pops. But if your community never had any bubbles in its mortgage/homeownership bubble bath, you’re insulated from the effects.
Oh, and anonymous’ comment that foreclosures are up by 94% is just downright false. The Seattle Times uncovered that many of the foreclosure statistics double- or triple- reported for the same properties.
Remember CYS, my friends. Consider Your Source.
Check it out:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/realestate/2003749470_foreclosure17.html
And can I just say I’m proud of my big sis for addressing this issue with grace?
Love you!
Vic